MTSS Interventions for Autistic Students

Transcript

Vanessa

Welcome to our webinar, everybody, and thank you so much for being here. Uh, we really hope that this webinar is going to spark an even bigger discussion about supporting neurodivergent youth, especially through MTSS, that brings about some positive change in classrooms, schools, and districts across the country.

Uh, so to get started, I'll just do a little self-intro as the moderator. So, uh, my name is Vanessa Castaneda Gill. I am the CEO and co-founder of Social Cipher, which builds social-emotional learning video games and curriculum for neurodivergent youth ages 10 to 15. Uh, and I founded this company based on my own lived experiences, uh, and challenges as a neurodivergent individual.

So I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD when I was 14. Uh, and with my work, I really aim to empower neurodivergent students and the supports and kind of give them the supports that I wish I had had on my own academic journey.  And then lastly, uh, our team at Social Cipher is really thrilled to bring you this presentation.

Uh, if you'd like to better support your neurodivergent students from a neurodiverse team, uh, with fun, inclusive and high quality social-emotional learning, you can learn more or even try our games at socialcipher.com.  

Alright! Well, now it is time to introduce my wonderful co-presenters. Um, so the first up is Dr. Lucas Harrington, who is a talented, clinical psychologist, author, and autism specialist using his academic background and his lived experience as an autistic person with ADHD, he's been able to deeply understand the families and youth that he supports. He specializes in clinical areas like emotional regulation, disruptive behavior, and school avoidance.

And we're super honest, honored to have Lucas on our team where he has a really important role of enhancing Social Cipher's SEL curriculum and really ensuring that we're engaging, impactful and neurodiversity-affirming.  

And then we also have the wonderful Dr. Nathalie Henderson. Um, so Dr. Nathalie is very accomplished and a powerful force in the education world. She served in various leadership roles for school districts around the country. It's like a very impressive list, uh, from Indianapolis to Atlanta to Oklahoma City. Um, she's also spent 12 years in the St. Louis public schools as a special education teacher and school administrator. And currently she's the Executive VP, Corps Member and Alumni Leadership for Teach for America.

She is also our District Partnerships Advisor here at Social CIpher, where she helps me out a whole lot, but uses her experience to make sure that our school district users have the support and info they need to implement our product in supporting neurodiverse students.

Alright!. . So before we get into, uh, speaking more deeply about the intersection of neurodivergence and MTSS strategies, I would love for you, Dr. Nathalie, uh, to be able to define the MTSS tiers for us. Can you do that?

Nathalie

 Sure. Thanks, Vanessa. So yeah, as we think about level setting again, range of folks on the call on the differences between the MTSS tiers and academics, social-emotional learning and behavior. So remember, MTSS is a framework, not a rigid program, and the tiers represent increasing levels of support.

The specifics will vary based on your school's context and chosen interventions. Key considerations across all the tiers: data driven decision making, collaboration, fidelity of implementation, and progress monitoring. So if we start with Tier 1, which is on the graphic on the bottom, also known as the universal tier, it's about foundational support provided to all students.

In academics, this is about high quality research based core instruction. It's about effective teaching strategies and differentiated instruction in the general ed classroom. With SEL, it's about proactive and preventative  practices. So, creating a positive and school supportive climate and teaching social-emotional skills for all students.

Um, this might include school wide initiatives like classroom meetings focused on social skills or teaching strategies that promote emotional regulation and empathy. And then we think about behavior. This is about establishing clear school wide expectations, teaching about positive behavior, and creating a consistent system of reinforcement. So think PBIS.  

Tier 2, the middle tier, aka targeted, unlike Tier 1, Tier 2 is for students who haven't shown that they're making progress with the things that were happening in Tier 1. And the key word here is targeted. Interventions in Tier 2 are designed to address specific skill deficits or areas of need.

Think we're not throwing like a wide net. We're focusing on the precise areas where students are struggling. Um, and Tier 2 is intended to be a bridge back to successful performance in Tier 1. The goal is to provide students with the supports they need to catch up and thrive in general ed spaces. The key here is intensity and specificity.  

Alright, so when we think about Tier 3, it's like the most intensive level of support within MTSS. These students have significant academic, behavioral, or social-emotional  challenges that require highly individualized interventions. And so again, if you just think about the differences I shared across all three tiers, we'll go a little bit deeper later about each of those tiers with when you think about academic supports, behavioral supports, or social-emotional  supports.

Vanessa

 Alright, well, thank you for that background, Nathalie.  Um, so now we're going to talk to Dr. Lucas here. Um, so now that we know what folks are looking for in terms of support with MTSS, which is all the tiers, um, I would love for you to bring in how it intersects with neurodivergent students. Uh, can you give us an overview of neurodivergent student behaviors and what it means to be neurodiversity-affirming?

Lucas

 Yeah, um, so in our last webinar, we talked about some of the common challenging behavior you might see from autistic kids and then the unmet needs behind them. So you might see students where they're constantly late and disorganized, and that's not necessarily a motivation issue, it's not that they don't care, it could be an executive functioning issue.

You see a lot of kids where they are behaving disruptively, and it's because they're having sensory pain, because lights or sound that don't seem significant to other people might actually be physically agonizing for some of these kids. If they're procrastinating, they might want to start, but they're intimidated by a big project and they don't know where to start.

Um, you get the kids where they really have a hard time coping with an unexpected change in schedule. And so if the program isn't  predictable enough, then you might see some explosive behavior. Again, not how they want to be responding, but just they become really overwhelmed. Uh, you might have kids where they're distracting other people, they're being noisy, and it's because they're trying to manage their own under-stimulation. They're feeling numb and just trying to get some input.

And the traditional way of looking at children behavior is basically the idea people think that if we don't incentivize kids to act right, then they're just gonna be eating hot dogs in their underwear in front of the television all day.  And then we see, you know, it is true that some kids don't seem to be showing very much interest in meeting expectations or cooperating or learning and growing.

And so then traditionalists look at that kid and they say, you know, see, we told you, we need to apply some pressure. This kid is never going to want to do anything.  And after my many years of parent coaching for families with very challenging kids, some of the most, most challenging, you know, aggressive, school-avoidant, all of those things. Um, I look at that and I see a kid who is already using up all of their energy, just struggling to meet the current expectations. They just have, they have no brain space left to think about taking initiative or what else they might want to be doing. Yeah.  And so, even if motivation is part of the issue at this point, those motivation issues didn't come from nowhere.

One of the things that I emphasize to people is, you know, let's say that you have a kid where they genuinely don't care about other people. It's, it's very rare for that to happen. That is not, there's been myths about autism and empathy. It, um, that is not actually part of autism. Autistic people care just as much as anybody else.

But even if you had somebody where they really don't care,  even if that's the case, life is just easier if you can get your needs met without upsetting other people.  And so, even if you really only cared about the outcome for yourself being cooperative would still be the most strategic decision. And so what that tells us is that uncooperative behavior must be because the person is having difficulty getting their needs met in a more constructive way. They might not have the skills that they need for it, um, and or the environment not, might not allow it. Because like most of the world, schools are generally set up according to the needs and the comfort of neurotypical people.

And so if you need evidence for the uphill battle that these autistic kids are fighting, take a look at these statistics here. So, according to the U. S. Department of Education, uh, only 17 percent of public school students have a disability that they're receiving some kind of service or accommodation for, but these kids represent 24 percent of the students received one or more in school suspensions, 29 percent of students who received out of school suspensions, 27 percent of students referred to law enforcement, 28 percent of students who have were dealing with school related arrests, 21 percent of the students who were expelled and 30 percent of incarcerated youth. These kids with disabilities are just getting very disproportionately affected. by these things. And a survey in the UK, they, uh, you know, they surveyed families of kids who were school-avoidant and they found that 90 percent of the school-avoiding kids were neurodivergent and over 80 percent of them were actually autistic specifically.

And so school interventions have historically assumed that autistic kids main problem is not knowing or refusing to fit into the standard school box. And so they think, well, if you get rid of the differences, then you've gotten rid of the problem  Neurodiversity-affirming services, on the other hand, don't assume that there's one right way to think or to behave. Uh, neurodiversity-affirming services assume that the kids choices must make sense when you understand what's led up to it. And that doesn't mean that we're just gonna let them do whatever. It doesn't mean that it's the great long term choice there. Honestly, if you're getting to the point, uh, that you need to intervene, then their behavior probably isn't working out great for them either. It probably doesn't feel great for them.  But, neurodiversity-affirming interventions means understanding what the kids are trying to achieve and then helping them find a different approach that is still meeting their same needs.

And so I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the pitfalls that you might see when you're trying to apply typical MTSS interventions to the autistic community. And I want to specify, when we say typical MTSS interventions, I'm mainly referring to PBIS's reward systems and similar interventions.

There are plenty of other popular MTSS supports that can be just great for autistic kids - like mentoring, clearly defined expectations - those can be really fantastic for them. Basically, the systems that are setting kids up for success are generally good. Systems that let them really struggle and then punish that struggle are not so good.

So I'm going to walk you through three different ways that these behavior reward systems can really fail to support kids.  So number one, um, picture a kid who just can't sit still.  I am someone, um, where I am to this day pretty hyperactive. I'm on medication. I'm still restless. I'm actually on a balance board right now.

And, so, if you try to make me stay focused without fidgeting or pacing, without something to do, I am just jumping out of my skin. All of my focus is going towards coping with that rather than learning what I'm supposed to be learning.  So think about this kid who's on a behavior plan where he can earn rewards if he sits appropriately in his seat for 15 minutes at a time.

But sitting still is physically painful for him. So eventually this kid cracks and he gets up to move around and he loses his points. So now he's upset about not getting his reward, he's embarrassed, his adrenaline is spiking. So I want you to think about, you know, does all of that adrenaline, does that then make it harder or easier for him to sit in his seat?

Um, I think about this one kid that I evaluated just profoundly hyperactive, one of the most, most intense hyperactivity that I've ever seen. And one of the things that I really emphasized to the family was that putting this child on a behavior plan to incentivize sitting still would be like putting a child with a physical disability, mobility disability on a behavior plan to incentivize walking.

All right, and then child number two. So this, this child is very sensitive to sound, so she's getting out of her seat, but she's getting up to go hide in the coat closet if the class is getting a little noisy, well, a little noisy by our standards, very, very noisy by her standards.  And so.,  you know, you think about, you put this child on a token economy and she starts staying in her seat to earn her points.

And for whatever reason, unlike the first child, this one is able to force herself to ignore her distress in doing this. And she really, really wants to earn her prize, so she's coming to school and she's suffering through it each day.  I worked with this kid where they earned candy if they got their work done, and the work that they needed to earn the candy was more than they could really handle without burning themselves out.

And so every day, pretty much, they were earning their candy and then they would come home and they were just the Tasmanian Devil at home. And, uh, some people call this after school restraint collapse, where you've got all of these feelings that they were bottling up in school all day and then they just come pouring out once they're in a safe place and with safe people.

And these poor parents are begging the school, like, please, something needs to change. This is not sustainable. And the school is going, oh, don't worry. They're doing great. Did you see how much work they're getting done?  And so going back to our imaginary child, where she's powering through her suffering to earn her prize, one day this girl wakes up and she just does not feel like she can push through today.

And so she knows if she goes to school, she is not going to be able to stay in her seat like they expect her to. And so she's not going to earn her prize and the teacher's going to be disappointed in her. And this girl might not even realize why school isn't feeling safe to her. She might even not even realize that she's having anxiety.

Um, a lot of times, you know, she tells her mom that she's sick and she believes that she's really sick. Because when she thinks about going to school, her stomach is hurting. And this is one of the ways that school phobia can start.

And then, for the third one, for child number three, this kid is not hyperactive, he does not have the sensory sensitivities, sitting still is not miserable for him, he just doesn't see the point of following class rules or doing his work.

This kid has never had a good connection with an adult, his home is not a safe place, and his attitude towards adults as a result is not endearing him to the teachers.  Um, and so this kid, you put the point system in place, and all of a sudden he's following the rules, he's doing his work.  And a lot of people look at that and they go, fantastic, we solved the problem.

But really what's just happened there is the equivalent of taking the batteries out of a smoke alarm instead of putting out the fire. So this kid still doesn't see any value in what he's doing, and nobody's feeling urgency to address that because he seems to be doing fine.  But think about what is going to happen to this kid once he's in a less structured environment, once he's not getting constant rewards, and what's going to happen to him in his personal relationships, where it's not going to be transactional like that.

And so, you know, people complain sometimes about kids who have been on these intensive behavior plans, and they say, well, they're just doing the bare minimum to earn their rewards.  And I'm always like, if you really think about it, like, that's basically what we would expect to happen here. He has been taught to understand these expectations as a box that you check off to get your reward.

He probably has absolutely no idea why they're worth doing at all, let alone worth doing well. And so he and the kid who was incentivized to ignore her own needs, they're getting increasingly reliant on other people telling them what to do. And they're getting more and more disconnected from developing their own sense of right and wrong.

And there are plenty of MTSS strategies that get actual buy in from the kids and help them to figure out what problems need to be solved that are getting in the way of success. But unfortunately, the popularity of the point systems, um, has made a lot of autistic people very wary of structured school programs in general. And so that's something that you might run into when you're trying to look into kind of what is the autistic community's perspective on this when you're figuring out how to improve your programs.

Vanessa

 Definitely. And, uh, speaking of as an, uh, someone who's autistic and ADHD myself, having been a student, all of this resonates so much and I've been looking at the chat and it's resonating with a lot of folks in the chat as well.

Um, so going on with that, I, Dr. Nathalie, can you, now that we kind of know these challenges, um, and with your expertise as a former district administrator, what can schools expect if they do invest in addressing these challenges with more neurodiversity-affirming  interventions?  

Nathalie

 Yes, I mean, once schools begin recognizing and valuing the unique ways that neurodivergent students think, learn, and behave, and apply neurodiversity-affirming practices, there are a whole host of benefits.

Students feel understood and supported in their unique learning needs. They're more likely to engage academically and socially, and students can thrive by using their strengths. Um, by accommodating diverse learning styles and sensory needs,  neurodiversity-affirming practices can reduce the frustration and anxiety that can lead to some of the challenging behaviors and discipline referrals that teachers have to do.

Um, as Lucas shared, instead of being punished for behavior that reflects neurodivergence,  students are provided with strategies and supports that help them manage their emotions and behaviors more effectively. Uh, affirming practices can help neurodivergent students develop a positive self identity, and when they see the value in their differences, rather than feeling deficit, they build confidence and are more likely to exhibit positive attitudes and actions in the classroom.

Um, these practices also promote empathy and understanding among all students and staff, alluding to stronger relationships and a more inclusive school culture. Um, the sense of belonging and respect, even in my work ,uh, with new teachers, novice teachers, sense of belonging, uh, and relationships are strong indicators of how well they will do as new teachers in the role as they gel with the class, the teacher and staff community.

So having our students who  are autistic begin to have a stronger sense of belonging and respect, it reduces, it reduces conflicts, promotes cooperative and social communication among students and adults. And when adults are able to build their toolkits in these affirming practices, they also feel more equipped. And so this lowers stress and builds hope that strong outcomes and students are possible.

Vanessa

 Fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, that seemed like a lot of pretty good benefits. So folks, we've given you a lot of background information on MTSS interventions and the specific challenges that autistic students especially may face with them. But as Dr. Nathalie said, yeah, there's a ton of benefits to addressing these challenges for a more inclusive and impactful school environment.

Um, and this is a chat question that I will bring up right now. Uh, if you could answer, type your answer into the chat, we would love to learn, uh, what MTSS supports are you currently leveraging and how do you like them? Um, all of us will be reading out some of these for the next couple of minutes.

Nathalie

 I like social behavior mapping. I see someone put, that's a good one.

Lucas

 Yeah, I see the unconditional positive, positive regard, realizing that a lot of these things are people, something that kids need in order to get started, not something you can hold out until afterwards.

Vanessa

Oh, 25 minutes focus, five minute breaks, Pomodoros.  Got my Pomodoro timer right here, actually, because I still use it regularly.

Brain breaks,  SEL, short SEL workshops at the end of each class.

Lucas

 And for the Pomodoros, sometimes you need to adjust those numbers. I actually saw somebody talking online about what they called reverse Pomodoros, which was five minutes working and then 25 minutes break, which is still, you know, ten minutes more work an hour than you're going to get.

Vanessa

 Hopefully you've also gotten some ideas from each other. I think this is a great way to kind of collaborate and get ideas. Um, so  for our last presentation section, we want to focus on the specific tangible interventions for supporting autistic students in each tier of MTSS. So Dr. Nathalie, would you like to take it from here on Tier 1?

Nathalie

 Sure. Thanks. So supporting autistic students in Tier 1 of MTSS means creating a universally inclusive and supportive environment that benefits all students, but particularly addresses the common needs of those on the autism spectrum. Um, you'll see some examples here.

Uh, one, explicit and direct instruction. So, you know, all students can benefit from using clear, concise language, avoiding idioms and abstract concepts, breaking down complex tasks into smaller, manageable steps. I recently was on a school visit doing walkthroughs and the admin team had a culture rubric where the indicator the teacher was working on was clear bite size directions. And again, this was in the general classroom and it was supposed to help them understand that given students multiple directions might be leading to some of the confusion and understanding the task and following through.

Uh, another example in this tier is structured and predictable environment. Clear routines and schedules using visual schedules, timers, and transition warnings, uh, to minimize anxiety and increase predictability.

Um, this was a big one, even for me, when I was a classroom teacher, creating organized and uncluttered  learning spaces. I can't tell you how many classrooms I've been in across the country where this was not the case. Um, and so again, it benefits all students and it's particularly helpful for our students, uh, who are autistic.  

When we think about, uh, social integration with academics, embed social skills instruction into academic lessons. Um, Ava, the online game developed by Social Cipher, can be used as a universal SEL tool. Teachers can use the video game series during advisory or designed in a designated SEL block to build foundation and social-emotional competencies.  

Emotional literacy helps students develop emotional literacy by teaching them to how to identify and label their own emotions and the emotions of others. I'm sure you may have seen the emotions wheels. I have it pinned on my laptop and in my slack channel so that I can use my words when I am describing my feelings when I'm leading a team meeting.  

Sensory breaks and regulation - provide access to sensory breaks or quiet spaces where students can regulate their emotions and sensory input. Social Cipher also has a sensory space guide located on our blog to help you create a sensory station in schools. One of the items includes concert earplugs and my daughter, who is not on, uh, has not autistic last spring started asking if she could take headphones to school to help her focus because she said sometimes it was noisy and distracting when she wanted to focus.

And so, again, these are supports within Tier 1 universal for all students, but will really help our students, um, who are autistic.

Tier 2. So again, Tier 2 is where we provide those targeted interventions for students who are showing some challenges, but not quite requiring the intensity of Tier 3. So think of it as providing extra focus support to prevent issues from escalating. Oftentimes Tier 2 involves small group settings, so you'll see lunch bunch, um,  SEL, you'll see peer mentoring, study skills groups.

For autistic students, this can provide a safe, less, safer, less overwhelming environment to practice skills. Um, and when you're starting to increase the frequency and intensity. So remember it's not a wide net. There are precise areas where students can need help and it relies still on evidence based interventions. We're using strategies that have been proven effective in addressing the specific needs of students.

Um, so again, examples on the screen, uh, peer mentoring. So if you think about pairing students with mentors who can provide support and guidance in the social situation, um, I know of schools that have peer mentoring where the counselor may pull a group to meet once a week to work on social and problem skills and have students in their grade level also be a part so they can serve as models.

Another example is using social stories and comic strip conversations to teach social skills and address the specific social situations. Um, these  tools can help students understand specific social cues, perspectives and expectations. Social Cipher also has space pirate scenarios where students can increase their understanding of social-emotional competencies by applying them in situations that directly relate to their everyday life.

It's also set in space, so if students are familiar with Ava, the online game, they'll see that connection and maybe even have some even extraordinary ways to handle so many situations because they are familiar with the game.

Vanessa

 That is true, and that is kind of a lot of what we do.  Lucas, I would love for you to take over for Tier 3.

Lucas

 Yeah, Tier 3 is definitely where  almost all of my clients end up fitting, if not all. Um, and so this is the intensive individualized intervention. And so that may look like pullout services for something like therapy or academics,  um, counselors, occupational therapists, and speech therapists, in addition to Ava being used like with a whole class or with a small group, like a lunch bunch or something.

They can also be used in one on one sessions with kids who might need some extra support in understanding, applying the concepts, if it's not clicking for them when they play more independently with a full group. Um, also to speak to the space pirate scenarios, uh, there are three different activities.

There, the stories are the same, but there's three different, uh, activities that can be used with the stories for different developmental levels, different levels of support need.  Sensory support and other accommodations can also fit in Tier 3. And so there are so many ways that you can modify a child's environment and or their schedule to remove unnecessary stressors, which is an important thing to free up their energy for taking on the necessary or the important challenges.

I worked, I worked with a kid where he was  um, and when, when COVID hit, they all went to online school and a lot of the kids did struggle with the online school. There were a fair number of autistic kids that had difficulty engage with the online, but one kid that I worked with, like, that was the best thing, basically, that ever could have happened to him, where he was just able to focus on learning without needing to navigate the social aspect, the sensory aspect, the, you know, organization planning aspect.

And so the more you can remove, like I said, the more you can remove some of those unnecessary stressors, the more they can focus their energy on the necessary and important challenges.  

And then a good functional behavior analysis and behavior intervention plan can absolutely be valuable for figuring out the best way to apply those supports. Um, this behaviorism has a bad rap because as I discussed before, they've traditionally been used in a sense of how can we pressure this child into giving into what the adults want?  Um, but I always say the behavior analysis is a science. It's like chemistry. Chemistry can be used to make medicine. It can be used to make weapons.

I personally love data, um, including data about myself, so I'm autistic, the pattern, pattern, uh, loving patterns is a common autistic thing. I'm wearing a smart ring right now that keeps track of my footsteps, my heart rate, and my sleep. This is all valuable information. And so imagine having a collaborative, even for yourself, imagine having a collaborative, empowering behavior analysis where the analyst is learning about what matters to you. And then follows you around and gives you a report on ways that your life could be easier.  

Um, I, I mean, maybe most people would find the following around part a little intrusive, but just imagine if you could have somebody giving notes like, I noticed that if you try to get your writing done first thing in the morning, then you get distracted easily. But if you try to do it, uh, but if you do your writing right after lunch, then it seems to come much more easily and you stay on task better.  And then imagine them giving the people around you advice on how to help you succeed.  

And collaborative and proactive solutions, collaborative problem solving, all the Ross Green stuff, Explosive Child, everybody knows it by different names, um, but those are fantastic tools that can be used at any time, at any tier, but it can be especially valuable for making sure that these behavior plans are really taking the kids needs into account.

And so I have seen a few schools do just beautiful, beautiful Tier 3 interventions. Figuring out what really helps this particular kid shine and what helps them feel settled when they're starting to get overwhelmed. And I think that the more that you do this, the easier it gets because, um, as Dr. Nathalie was saying, you know, it gives you hope that you can reach these kids.

You start to have the experience and the confidence to know that investing this energy up front is going to save you a ton of energy down the line from no longer having to deal with the constant crises. But I know that it is a big investment to get that ball rolling.  But it is so worth it if you are able to get over kind of that initial learning curve.

Vanessa

 Most definitely. Well, thank you both for talking us through all those interventions and all those different very tangible things that can be done. Um,  along with this, uh, our MTSS interventions guide, which will be sent to all attendees, and it should be in the chat, is going to go more in depth on these to give you even more information from, uh, the wonderful minds of these two, uh, so be looking out for that resource, which will be hitting your inbox, uh, after the webinar.

Alright, and now to answer everyone's questions, of which I've seen there are many, so I'm really excited about that.

So, uh, let's see. I have one person that's asking, uh,  which tier is Ava best suited for? Is this a resource that can be used, uh, whole group in Tier 1?

I would say that Ava is most commonly used in Tier 2. Um, I would say that the placement  of how our current schools and therapy centers, of which there are over 200 now, um, we have, uh, most in Tier 2, quite a few at a very close second Tier 3, and then we also have quite a few in Tier 1.

Um, in Tier 1, this is typically used as more of an advisory period tool that's used once to, uh, to twice per week. Um, it can be also used as an afterschool tool or an elective class, but mostly we'll see them in like SEL, uh, periods in an advisory period. Um, and it'll be used typically, yes, as a whole classroom tool, or students will be separated into small groups and then come together for a classroom discussion and group work.

Lucas

 I will add, you know, I already spoke for some of the, the Tier 3 applications. Speaking to Tier 1, um, I think, you know, a lot of times, so, uh, SEL tools that are intended for some of the, the more intensive tiers are often very simplified in a way that people feel like might make them, you know, too boring or too easy for, uh, kids who are in Tier 1.

I'm very, very involved with the writing of the story.  For the games and with the making of the resources and we have just a really brilliant writer who was it was a teacher herself and, uh, brings a lot of, you know, great heart and humor to the stories. And one of the things that we've looked at, we talk a lot about kind of fandom in general and how kids  get, um, how, how kids get all of this social-emotional learning from just things they love in the mainstream media, like the discussions that I saw going around about like Encanto, or, um, you know, Avatar, or what have you, Lord of the Rings. And so that is something that we really aim for with our games, is having these rich, layered stories where you can focus on kind of the very straightforward main point lessons, but then we've deliberately built in a lot of additional nuance so that there's lots to discuss coming back again and again, just like these, you know, more more mainstream entertainment.

Vanessa

 Yes. Yeah, that's a, that's a huge principle of ours. And I have another really interesting question, um, that came up. So, in terms of sensory considerations, how can we help students who have opposing needs? So, for example, one student gets understimulated very easily and stims noisily, but then another student gets overstimulated by those exact same noise stims.

Lucas

 That, that is a, that is a fantastic question, um, that's one, that is one of the places I think where the collaborative proactive solutions can be so valuable. It's a system for really breaking down what exactly are you trying to solve here. One of the things, one of the key components in it is what they call unclumping. Because the reason something is an issue today might be different from the reason it was an issue yesterday. Or the reason that it's an issue this afternoon might be different from the reason it was an issue this morning. And so really, really digging in deep into what needs exactly are trying to be met here.

And then, um,  it's, I often talk when I'm working with families, I often ask them, like, are you gamers? Do you like puzzles? And a lot of them really do. I'm like, that is exactly what we're doing here is we're trying to map out, like, what are the constraints that we're trying to solve for? And then figuring out.

So in one situation, you know, a lot of times a common mistake people make and why the unclumping is so important is because they're looking for one solution that's going to solve everything, but all the situations are so different that that is not going to work. And so, you know, in one situation, the kid who's noise sensitive might be able to wear headphones. But in another situation, they might not be able to, but the kid who's being noisy might be able to get themselves regulated in a different way, or they might be able to go out into the hall in order to, you know, get that energy out and so on. So it really does take detective work on a case by case basis.

But again, you know, what I see with these families is that the, um, the more that they practice it, the more experience you get, the more naturally it comes. So in the beginning, you're really kind of having to think it through and  the more experienced you get, the more the kids are able to take initiative, take the lead themselves on identifying, um, the concerns and possible solutions and also to, you know, more easily communicate to you, give you the information that you need in order to get it solved.

Vanessa

And Nathalie, did you have any thoughts as well on this question about the opposing sensory needs and how to solve that?

Nathalie

 Well, one of the things I was thinking about is, as we talked about in Tier 1 around building in like the affirming and the understanding from  students about how we all have differences. Right? And so what might be one person's way of managing through is different from another's. Um, and so I think that that will go a long way. Um, and then I affirm everything that Dr Lucas said, in terms of being able to like, navigate with, uh, um, your phones or, you know, create space in the classroom.

I know classrooms, um,  can be a very jam packed space in terms of everything that's in there, but thinking about your space creatively, I've also seen classrooms where students not for behavior punishment, but have separated their, their desk is separated from the pods or in the rows that they're in. And so that also might be an option again, given your room constraints.

Lucas

 I absolutely agree with everything that Dr Nathalie's saying. I would also add Googling for conflicting access needs or competing access needs will get you some, some writing on this topic. That's the, that's the term that's used for that kind of thing.

Vanessa

 Great. Great.  And, um, our next question. I've been seeing some really interesting ones.

Uh, so there is this one question. Someone has a child on the spectrum, but their grades are above class average. Um, so the district doesn't want to recognize their disability, especially when overstimulated, they just discipline. So how, how would you, uh, maybe as a teacher or a specialist, how would you go about that and trying to kind of figure it out?

Nathalie

 I'd have a couple of wonderings about whether or not teacher counselor. If everyone is aligned and giving this particular parent and child, um, the negative or the no, in terms of trying to be able to do support, or if it is solely at the administrative level or in the classroom, because I do think trying to identify who might be an advocate within the school to school is helpful.

Also, some states have local advocacy groups that you could plug into to have someone either coaching through your talking points and or attend meetings with you if you feel comfortable and they feel comfortable. Um, I think it's always best to have someone with you in these types of situations. And then I think, you know, being able to propose some specific ways that might be helpful.

So we've talked about some strategies here. Oftentimes when you are in a situation where folks are against what you're proposing, because they might not necessarily have the skill set or understand what they could do. And so it also might be helpful to come with the strategies, which is what we're asking for, not the generalities of my student may need help, but this  high academic performing, we want that to continue. And here are their specific one or two strategies around the other areas that may be causing them to have the challenges in the general education environment. So I'll stop there and let Dr Lucas add more specifics as a practitioner. But that would be my offering.

Lucas

Yeah, I think  that that all sounds great there's I've definitely seen some really valuable work from some of the advocate advocacy organizations like the ARC. We have a really, really, really fantastic ARC up here in King County. Um,  I think  that,  um, I was, I was recently talking with somebody who is, uh, an autistic school advocate. And one of the things that they talked about was really coming in. They had a lot of experience, uh, I think they were, they were a teacher and had all of this experience.

And so they were able to come into the schools with information saying, I have a plan for you that is going to make your life easier. Not I have a bunch of expectations for you to add to your workload  and that they were they were telling you how that could be, you know, really valuable for getting the school buy in. I do find that the challenges with trust between the families and the teams can be a big issue and so  as as Dr. Nathalie was saying figuring out, you know, who are the advocates? Can we get people? Feeling more like they are pulling together for a shared goal as opposed to, you know, butting heads over wanting very different things.

Vanessa

 Alright, great. And then I have another question here. Um, there's quite a few questions, uh, which is fault of mine. Uh, somebody asked, uh, what is Ava and also what is the  Social Cipher  SEL curriculum? Um, so, Social Cipher is our company, um, and Ava is our video game series and curriculum, and sort of platform that it's all hosted on.

Um, they also were asking about, uh, just how much prep it takes, um, sort of what it covers. Uh, the Ava curriculum and game series covers all of the CASEL social-emotional learning competencies, everything from building trust, uh, to coping with change and trying new things. Um, and it also, it comes with about a year, it's about a year's worth of curriculum content, uh, and game content that students can use once to twice per week,  uh, and it's neuro-inclusive.  

We also, um, have professional development that goes with it, um, that you can look into. That goes into building inclusive classrooms, which I think the link to the PD was also posted in the chat. Uh, but that'll be, uh, Neurodiversity 101, 101 for, uh, sort of  teachers and professionals. It'll also give you information on building an inclusive classroom and an inclusive school or system as well, and also talks about ableism in the classroom and dismantling that.

In terms of teacher prep for the Ava curriculum, which I forgot to answer, teacher prep is pretty easy and simple. We set everything up in terms of learning goals, uh, and have a very, uh, consistent sort of structure for all of our lessons, uh, that is in there. So we really try to make it sort of a grab-and-go sort of content.

Um, and then  I saw another interesting question. I think we have time for one more. Um,   all right. How do we get so let's say there are multiple students with multiple tier in multiple tiers in a classroom. How do we get all staff in the classroom to support all children at different levels in their tiers?

Nathalie

 I'll start with this one. Um, that, that is a very real scenario. Um, right? So, first, I think being clear on who is in what tier, right? Are there any overlapping needs you are addressing? Um, and then,  and again, I, most of my experience has been larger urban school districts. And so there are, you know, TAs or different staff members that are within the building that we can leverage for supports. I imagine that might be a different experience if you're in a more rural or suburban or just just a smaller district. So I think that's one.

The other thing is that the school MTSS team should be able to help direct some of how you can think about scheduling or creating your day. Um, and so I know some schools have, you know, consistent blocks for ELA and math for the whole school. Some allow teachers to kind of have flexibility with their own schedule. And so it also thinks about, I'd also say, once you know who's in which tier of what the support they're getting, um, what they're getting support in then look at your daily class schedule to see if there are ways to like flip it around or make some moves there. And then I would say leverage in the MTSS team. And so they should be tracking at the school level where kids are right in each individual grade level. There might be opportunities to do something in collaboration with another teacher at your grade level. Um, I know as a principal long, long time ago, um, way before I really knew about neurodiverse-affirming practices, we would really leverage our teachers across the same grade level and some of our specialist teachers, right?

Particularly for some things that were check in, check out things that were on, uh, some of this SEL behavior, particularly using adults that kids had relationships with outside of the classroom. So, um, one, and again, when you're going to your MTSS team to kind of, um, advocate for what you need in your classroom, how many students are in each tier, what is it the specific skill that you're working on or the area, and then leverage that MTSS team, I think, to help identify some solutions. But often they're within how the school day is organized for your particular schedule.

Vanessa

 Awesome. Oh, I do have time for one more small, quick question. Uh, someone had a great question. Is Tier 3 synonymous with special education?

Nathalie

 In most cases, yes, particularly on the academic, um, and behavioral side. This is somebody who has been referred, has gone through the process to get an IEP. Um, sometimes they're still in the review, right? And so you've tried some of those Tier 2, but in most cases, students are going to end up with, uh, uh, an IEP in Tier 3.

Again, I'll let Dr. Lucas add or say, I'm incorrect, and I'm happy to hear that as well.

Lucas

 Um,  so I think Dr. Nathalie, I think this is more more your expertise than mine. I do see that we have some people in the chat who  may have some some clarification. I know you said it's mostly synonymous, but it sounds like not 100%.

So, I'm I'm wondering what some of those differences might be.

Nathalie

 Yeah, so you may have a student who's in the, you're doing the data collection. So I've seen it take almost a full school year. I've seen it take, you know, 6 months. And so, however, that process is within your school or your district to get a student actually identified, I think is what I'm saying is most of, most of the time they end up with an IEP, but there are times when they're not there. So you've gone through different, different, um, intensities of supports and frequency. And so as you start to get them where they're super individualized, they might not have an IEP yet. And it might find that, oh, well, we're doing this thing, it's working. We don't actually need to go to the full on route of a diagnosis. And sometimes it will. So that's what I mean was. Very likely somebody in Tier 3 is going to end up with an IEP or those are written into their IEP  so  you are required to do them and some of the intensity and the individualization  might be working before you actually get that required step. And so as school a parent the team could choose to continue with that support without going through actually getting the IEP

Vanessa

 And it's clarified in the chat. Uh, yes, there's a lot of overlap with Tier 3 and with special education. Uh, but no, they are not exactly the same thing.

Alright,  and I think that  we can do actually just one more shorter one. Um, let's see here.  

Uh, does anyone have quick tips for students that might be learning through Zoom and online work, especially kids that are younger and K through 2?

Lucas

 I think this is some somewhere that also kind of very careful assessment about what the barriers if they are having difficulty engaging what the barriers might be. Um, you know, some of it may be sensory or conceptual that they're just not able to process information as well if it's coming in on the screen as if they are  encountering it in person and in real time, if it is problems with focus and attention, that's somewhere, um, something that we didn't really talk about in the previous ones, but a common strategy is working special interests into whatever you are trying to teach can really, really help with engagement rather than holding it out as a reward, instead  working it in.

One of the things I tell people is that like, for me, the special interest, it is not just a motivation thing. Like you could offer me incredible amounts of money to meet a goal, and it would probably not improve my performance as much as tying in  the, the interests. I am actually, I'm smarter when I'm, when my special interests are attached, not just more motivated.

And so that's something that may become more, more pressing if you're using a medium where they're having more difficulty engaging.

Nathalie

 And Vanessa, if I can, I'm reading the chat. And so I, I believe I clarified on the question about Tier 3 and MTSS that not every student who receives Tier 3 support will end up with an IEP. I don't know when that last comment was posted about clarifying, but I just want to make sure that I'm repeating that in case that person didn't hear it or we were at the same time.

Vanessa

 That makes absolute sense. And yeah, I think thanks for reiterating that that works out. All right. Well, thank you all for all the questions. Uh, and thank you both for your super informed and awesome answers. Um, I think that we can just go ahead with our last couple slides here.

There we go. So, uh, if you found the learnings here today helpful,  we would love to help your teachers build more inclusive classrooms through our professional development and to help your neurodiverse students build up their social-emotional skills and really advocate for themselves through our games and curriculum. So you can visit us at socialcipher.com to also try our games if you'd like to do that too.

And lastly, I just wanted to say a huge, huge thank you, uh, to Dr. Nathalie and Dr. Lucas for your time, your incredible expertise, and your just steadfast and ongoing passion for supporting neurodivergent students that I have had the great honor to see.

Thank you all for joining us. Uh, and we really, really hope that you all learn something new here today that helps you better support your students and that you all keep learning and discussing neurodiversity and these MTSS supports in your communities so that we can all make real change for the students of today and tomorrow.

Thank you so much and hope you all have a great day. Take care.

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