What is AuDHD? Interview w/ Dr. Lucas Harrington

Transcript

Deiera Bennett

 Hi everyone. I'm Deiera, the host of the All Kinds of Minds podcast. I represent Social Cipher, an EdTech company that makes social and emotional learning games for neurodivergent students. The All Kinds of Minds podcast is all about sharing tips, strategies, and insights to support the professionals who work with neurodivergent youth.

Today we have Dr. Lucas Harrington back again. If you haven't heard his other episode about supporting overlooked autistic girls, definitely check that out. It's a great one. I believe it was our first episode, actually. Lucas is an AuDHD clinical psychologist and published author who specializes in autism and neurodiversity. Thank you for being here again, Lucas.

Dr. Lucas Harrington

Thank you. It's great to be back.

Deiera

All right, so let's just jump right in. Can you give me a general overview of AuDHD and why it's important for educators to understand it?

Lucas

Yeah. So, um, that has been increasingly popular term for people who have both autism and ADHD. Um, I think a lot of that is recognizing kind of the overlap and interaction between them that it's not just the same as having two, you know, having two diagnoses separately. Um, and I think, you know, it's very, it can be very impactful. So, it's really good for people to know about that. And it's also really common. We don't know the statistics exactly. Like if you look it up, you'll see a wide range of what people are guessing. But it is, it is, actually entirely possible that it is more common to have somebody with both autism and ADHD than somebody with autism and no ADHD.

Deiera

So can you explain what that um, so to have autism and ADHD for one, I'm, I'm thinking that's probably underdiagnosed.

Lucas

Yeah. Yeah. Um actually historically you could not be diagnosed with both. If you were diagnosed with autism then you did not also get an ADHD diagnosis because those the ADHD related things were just considered to be part of the autism. Um but that changed uh with the DSM5. And so you know now we're having to revisit a lot of that with people who probably should have gotten an ADHD diagnosis as well the first time around and didn't.

Deiera

So, was it that they were being diagnosed with autism and not ADHD, or was it the other way around?

Lucas

Yeah. Well, I, I mean, there there was both. I think there's plenty of people out there who were diagnosed with ADHD where it is they they also have autism and that was missed, but like officially people diagnosed with autism could not have ADHD. And so, we're having to revise that. And then, of course, you know, each of those are also very underdiagnosed a lot of times individually, especially among the the different marginalized groups. So yeah.

Deiera

So for an educator who's not familiar with it, how might an AuDHD student's needs look different from a student who is solely autistic or a student who just has ADHD?

Lucas

Yeah. So if you look at the the discussion um especially like within the community, um you hear a lot of discussion of the the tension kind of between the two characteristics. And so, you know, with ADHD, you tend to really want a lot of novelty. You want to be exploring. With autism, you often want things to be really predictable and really consistent. And so, um, like people like myself, um, often experience that kind of that blend if it's just really hard to find that that sweet spot where the, you know, the extremes are often going to make like really unpredictable often make people with just ADHD happy and really consistent and predictable will often make people with just autism happy, but we're often needing to kind of navigate a lot more complexity and figuring out what's going to work for us.

Deiera

Okay. So, it sounds like it just depends, because every person is different. So the traits are going to be different and the strengths are going to be different. But are there certain common traits um that educators should be aware of so that they can support their students?

Lucas

Yeah. Um, I think, you know, something you might see often is where a teacher is like, "Well, this is what I was taught to do for autistic kids. Like, I'm doing all of the right things for this kid, and it's still not working." And, you know, best case scenario, they're going to realize that they need more, more help with figuring out what's going to work. Worst case scenario is the kid gets blamed where people go, "Well, we're doing everything that we're supposed to do and he just doesn't want to doesn't want to be successful with it."

Deiera

That's a, that's a, good point. Especially when the what we were taught to do, what we were supposed to do, might not even be right for autistic kids anyway. You know,  it's based on some stereotypes or just something that's outdated. So, I definitely see how that can well have a harmful impact on the student, too. I'm curious though, can the way that ADHD presents itself in some people and autism in some people, can they conflict sometimes? Like for the student themselves, can it be like, well, sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm very overstimulated by this thing, but then other time I need this noise so that I can focus.

Lucas

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I mean, even with autism alone, sometimes you see those those paradoxes. Those can be relatively common. But especially with when you add in the ADHD. Like one of the things that I've noticed for myself is that I think the more stressed I am, the more I lean towards kind of the autistic tendencies and just wanting everything to be repetitive and familiar. And the more relaxed I am, the more I lean towards the ADHD tendencies and really want like being a big sensation seeker, I guess, and want wanting to explore and try out a lot of new things.

Deiera

That's really good to know. Like basically certain, certain stress, certain triggers can bring out more traits from one rather than, rather than the other one. Um, so when did you get your diagnosis from both of these? Was it at the same time?

Lucas

So the the ADHD diagnosis, we just always kind of knew that I both of them actually, you know, we knew since childhood that I was, but I didn't get formally, I got formally diagnosed with ADHD when I was about 19, I think, when I finally went on medication. And then the autism, I was formally diagnosed, I want to say like 29 finally. Um officially it was late but informally you know we knew pretty early on.

And mentioning the medication act reminds me of another thing which is that um the medication responses can often be more more complicated if you also have autism. So like I'm on I'm on Vyvance which is a stimulant and that works great for me. It's it's the only one that I did. I tried a few different stimulants and a lot of them weren't, weren't great. I don't know if that's part of the autism or if that's just  a natural trial and error thing, but I do know that there are some autistic people where just the the stimulants don't work for them at all and they need to be trying other either other medications or non-medication strategies.

Deiera

Yeah, that makes sense. You've been wondering like, okay, is it autism or do certain medications just not work for certain people because of their, you know, biology or whatever? Um, so with you being um like formally diagnosed later on, do you feel like you got the support in school that you needed to address both of those?

Lucas

Um, so I was, I was at a private school from same, same private school from kindergarten through 12th grade and um I didn't have like formal special education services. Um, it was generally handled pretty informally just through like people knew me. Um, and  I think there are definitely things that I could have used more support with. Um, I, you know, I struggled with study skills. I really struggled with organization skills. Um, socially it was a little, little mixed where again, you know, being in that very familiar kind of K- 12 environment, I was able to make my, my core group of friends that I got on well with and just stick with them. But I did have a tough time if I didn't have kind of my usual people available. Um, so yeah, I would, I would say it was pretty mixed for me.

Deiera

That makes I'm sure being in a in a smaller private school definitely helped with, you know, being around the same people and kind of getting used to I also went to a private school, so I know what it's like when you just get used to seeing the same people year after year and it's not as much that you have to think about or worry about because you know what to expect a lot of times.

Lucas

Yeah. Yeah. I had I had at least one teacher where I had saw the same person from sixth grade through 12th grade. So that that helps a lot.

Deiera

Okay. So what are some strengths that um AuDHD student, AuDHD students might bring to the classroom? And of course it's going to vary from person to person, um, but just in general something that you can think of.

Lucas

Yeah. Um so you know of course none of these are going to apply to everybody but um one that I see very commonly is you know creativity I think is very commonly a big strength for the a lot of the the AuDHD kids that I work with. Um, the you get kind of the unique perspective of autism, the original thinking not so dialed into what you're supposed to be thinking about things coming from autism and then kind of the energy and the impulse to go on these, these tangents that can come with the ADHD. And so, you know, a lot of my the kids that I work with are, um, you know, very artistic, they're making like comics, drawings, um, maybe music, like inventing things, programming, coding is a big one for a lot of things, a lot of them. So, um, that's a very common one.

And then, of course, another big intersection between autism and ADHD is the, the hyperfocus and kind of the, the passion and intensity for some of those special interests. I would say those are um those are some of the big ones. Uh a lot of times I would say kind of deep, deep feelers. Um you know big emotions often like very very, uh, empathetic maybe especially because of some of the communication difficulties not necessarily always knowing how to show the empathy or understanding what's going on, but like really caring when they do understand. And often, um, also I would say some of the like sense of justice or the idealism can be kind of intensified. That's pretty common in the autism and then you get some of the kind of additional intensity and passion from the, the ADHD, we might see, might see that a lot.

Deiera

So it sounds like for a teacher they would need to make sure that they are doing, giving students an opportunity to be creative so that way they can feel like they're able to use their strengths if that is a strength that you know the student has. Um, and what you brought up about like that sense of justice, I know that's definitely something that would be important in the classroom because I remember students watch every single thing a teacher does. And if this one student gets two pieces of candy and another student got three, it is the end of the world. Um, you know just making sure, which is a good thing, making sure that everything is fair and, and equal. So that's some really good information.

Um, so what would you say are some signs that a student might be struggling because of unmet AuDHD related needs, even if they're performing well academically?

Lucas

Yeah, a big really common one for that is the afterchool restraint collapse. Um, where basically they're really holding it together all day and then they get home kind of to their safe place and they have to let out everything that they've been bottling. And so you get these families, you know, the kid comes home and it's just like the Tasmanian devil tearing up the house and they're reaching out to the school saying like, "Please, something needs to change." And the school's like, "Oh no, we're so proud of him. He's doing great. Must be something must be a problem at home." Unfortunately, quite common, I would say.

Deiera

So that's what the parents would see. But are there anything that the teacher or administrators that they would see in the classroom?

Lucas

Um, in the classroom. So before getting in in in the classroom, I guess something I would add to that is the um they might notice school avoidance. They might notice that the kid uh is is absent a lot and it's really confusing because they're like, "Oh, but the kid seems so happy at school." But the reality is that, you know, the kid it is just getting harder and harder for them to put on that good face when they go to school and they're like, "I cannot, cannot go do that today." And then within, within the school, I think a common thing you might see is struggling with the like the the fun parts of school, the parts that the other kids get excited about. Um, these might be kids where they really have a tough time with recess because it's unstructured, like any kind of unstructured time a lot of times where, um, you know play independently or to just like socialize or mix with friends, not given a clear, clear direction for what they're, they're supposed to be doing. That can be really tough, even if it's really enjoyable for most kids. That's a, that's a big sign.

Um, yeah. And then just again those those heightened emotions where you you might even see like some of the outbursts where they seem like they're doing really great and then just all of a sudden everything is a is a huge problem and they're, they're not doing anything and it just seems to go from you know zero to 100 like that but in reality they were able to hide it up to a certain point and then it all all comes out at once.

Deiera

So I have I have two questions about what you just said. The first one where you were talking about like those fun parts seem so fun, they might struggle with those. What do you mean by struggle with it? Like what does struggle look like in the way that you were referring to?

Lucas

Um, they might get themselves into trouble. Uh, they might fight with the other kids. I think um you know there's often, there's often conflict about like how you're going to do things. They might have, you know, one really close friend and have a tough time. If that friend is wanting to do something else, they might not know what else to do. Um, they might, I mean, sometimes it's not a problem. They just like being by themself. Um, but sometimes they would like to be included and they just don't know how to be included. Um, they might get themselves into trouble with again some of that intersection of you might see kind of the impulsivity of ADHD and some of that kind of out of the box thinking combined with the autism like not understanding the social norms and so just like breaking rules that the adults probably thought were kind of unspoken but the kid never had any idea that that was even a rule that they're supposed to be following. I think that's, that's a common one that you might see.

Um, and then another, another variant that you might see sometimes is if they really want to stick with the teachers. They want to socialize with the adults and so they want, you know, one-to-one attention from the adult who's trying to monitor however many kids out on the playground.

Deiera

Yeah, I definitely saw that as a teacher. They always want to sit with the teacher. Like, teachers are supposed to be so cool. So yeah, I definitely, I definitely saw that.

Um, so what can, what can an educator do if they know that, you know, this student does struggle with these kinds of activities? What can they do to to balance you know a lot of students do want that unstructured time whereas you know some students don't do well with that time, like recess and transitions and things like..?

Lucas

I think having um structured options can be really good I think this is another area where people can fall pitfall if they're thinking about the kind of the the conventional autism wisdom which is like just you know have a schedule for them and have them stick to that and the that I mean first off that's not going to work for every autistic kid in general and then especially when you add in the ADHD they might need more flexibility but just having like an option like maybe a visual menu of activities that you can do or I knew I know some places do like a buddy bench where you sit there if you need help with you know getting support in participating...teaching uh educating the other kids on how to how to interact with them like some fun things they might be able to do together. Some things the kids might not realize about that can help the communication go more smoothly. Um, having a plan for, you know, adults, keeping an eye if needed, and then also for other kids to kind of recognize before things escalate, maybe we want an adult to be to be helping us with this. Um, those are those are the things come to mind for me.

Deiera

Okay. And you also mentioned that um sometimes a teacher might notice like the big emotions where they seem like they were doing fine, grades were fine and then all of a sudden there's an outburst. What would be some of the, what are some triggers for that sometimes?

Lucas

Um, sometimes there is no trigger in the moment. Just every, you know, it's every single thing like the kid could have could have handled individually, but just if you if you stack enough of them up, then it boils over. Um, you know, sensory overload, um, the, the uncertainty, the unstructured time that can often lead to a lot of anxiety. I think anxiety is a lot of big things. Um, you, you'll want to think about anxiety in a, in relation to a lot of things. So like also with the sensory overload, you know, there is the overload of things being loud and then there's also the anxiety hanging over you of like it could be getting loud at any moment and you don't realize. Um some kids have a really tough time with being different like that they are, you know, using the ear protection or staying out of assemblies or just whatever it is that's making them feel different from other kids that they have a one-to-one. A lot of kids really hate having a one-to-one aide with them. Although some kids love it, everybody's, everybody's different. Um, you know, the the conflicts, the sense of fairness with I mean, one of the things that's tough with this isn't necessarily even just an an autism or ADHD thing, but just with kids in general, they don't necessarily have the big picture thinking to understand why something is fair in the grand scheme of things, even if they don't have the the exact same things at the the exact same moment.

Um, and and then also sometimes there is you know something related to their development that is making it hard where the other kids can see why it's fair but this kid is kind of not ready to grasp that big picture and so they look people think that they are um selfish or entitled although actually what I see with a lot of kids um a lot of autistic kids one of the things that I actually keep an eye out for when like when I'm doing diagnosis because you'll see kids for all sorts of reasons they might have a lot of concern about fairness, anxiety maybe with trauma, they're very worried about, "Am I going to be taken advantage of?" with autism, you will often see kids where they are concerned about fairness, even if it disadvantages them. Like, if they get two candies and the other person gets one, they're like, well, why didn't that person get two? That's, that, that's something that you you might see. Um, but unfortunately, people often, I guess, may remember selectively or may not encounter that part and so they think, "Oh no, this kid just, you know, cares about what what advantages them" basically.

Deiera

Sounds like a great advocate if they care about fairness regardless of if it benefits them or...

Lucas

Yeah. I've definitely gotten into that where like I was at uh in in one of my school things like there were some students who were having a problem. I went with them to support and I looked around. And I was like, "Oh, I'm the only person who is not being affected by this problem, who's in this group."

Deiera

But that's, that's interesting because, you know, there's this whole myth about autistic people and not having empathy and all of that, but it seems like in order to have that deep sense of justice and desire to advocate for others, like you have to have the empathy, it's just it might look different from somebody else, um, but that empathy is strong often times stronger than neurotypical people empathy.

Lucas

Yeah. Yeah. There's a distinction between um they call it um cognitive empathy which is like how well do you understand what is going on with other people, and then um effective empathy which is how much do you feel for other people or care about other people. And so, um, the research has shown like the effective empathy for autistic people is just as strong as anybody else, possibly, possibly stronger. The cognitive empathy, um, that's that that's a whole can of worms. It may be affected by autism. It may be just that like whenever your experience is very different from the rest of the group, it's going to be hard for you to understand that double empathy problem that we've we've talked about. Like it's, it's, it's hard to understand people whose experience is different, very different from yours. That's, that's natural. Whether it's because you're the only autistic person in the group, whether it's, you know, because you're the only boy in a group of girls, that's, that's natural. But there may also um some of that some of the more abstract thinking, there's especially been some interesting work on how kind of um language level might affect our ability to conceptualize um some of these more complex things like people experiencing things that we can't directly see. So yeah, very, very deep rabbit hole for that.

Deiera

Okay. Yeah, that, that's, that's interesting though because I didn't realize that there were two separate kinds. I think a lot of times they're kind of lumped together, where it's like you have to understand where this person is coming from and how they feel in order to feel for them. But it sounds like that's really not necessary.

Lucas

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that's a whole thing. You know, one of the problems that you can get into with kind of the traditional attitudes towards empathy is people really rely on their own experience to decide like, do I think this is justified? Like, if it does this, make sense to me, if it makes sense to me, if I can relate to it, then I'm going to care. Whereas, like, I have an autistic family member where they really struggle with understanding, like they really struggle with predicting like how I'll react to things, like what I'm thinking or feeling about things but they don't need to understand to care like they just have to have to know that it affects me and they care.

Deiera

You just described Facebook. Facebook comments and how opinionated everybody is and how they put their own like, well, I went through this experience so I know this is how this person feels and so now I'm sad because I know that they're sad and it's... yeah, I see why you say that's a rabbit hole when you said that. I instantly thought about all of the, the Facebook comments that I see of people projecting and coming to conclusions based off of how they feel.

Lucas

Yeah. Yeah. Uh that that ties back, I think, to what I was saying about the double empathy problem where a lot of people when they think they are being empathetic or other people think they're being empathetic, they're just projecting their own experience on. But if your experience is pretty similar, then you're going to have, you know, you're going to have a decent accuracy rate.

Deiera

True.

Lucas

But if your if your experience is different, then you do that same thing, then suddenly it's going to look like you're really bad at it.

Deiera

Yeah, that's true. That makes sense. So if a school leader wants to make their environment more AuDHD friendly for the whole school, so not thinking on the classroom level, but just like on a larger level, where should they start?

Lucas

Yeah, I think um the...so kind of the the the biggest starting place I guess be shifting that mindset like we talked about in the the the EdWeb webinar, um shifting that mindset away from like the behavior management to meeting the the underlying needs. Like the behavior systems - the, the points charts or the bucks or whatever - those are often just like those are often rewarding you for something coming easily to you, basically is rewarding the people who are have the easiest time rather than the people who are working the hardest. And so shifting that mindset to instead like you know what does this person need in place for kind of their natural impulses which actually are documented.

There's some very interesting research on like kids willingness to be pro-social and everything if they're if they're set up for to be able to dedicate energy to that. Um, they're really shifting that mindset to like what do they need for kind of their, their natural goodness, their their best self to be coming out here. And then I think that, that flexibility and that understanding also helps in terms of like the neurotypical kids, if their needs are getting met then they're going to have a lot more capacity to be patient with their classmates who might be um you know a little, little frustrating, a little different from what they are are used to. So I think that would be my, my biggest thing.

And especially, um, you know I'll really uh plug the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions approach here like I was saying um, the, with the AuDHD it's often much more individualized and often there is a lot more turnover in terms of like you might have this system that's working really brilliantly but that need for novelty is part of the needs and so assumes it's no longer new, it's no longer a perfect system anymore. Um, and so having the kids, the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions teaches the kids what they need, the skills that they need to be a lot more involved in coming up with solutions that work for them. And so then it's going to be a lot more efficient to keep coming up with new solutions as things, as things evolve.

Deiera

I really like what you said about the point systems and you and how you said that they reward the students who it just comes easier to, the the positive behaviors come easier to them, not necessarily the students who are working the hardest. And I just thought about how frustrating that must be if you're actually really, really trying and you're not getting these rewards because it doesn't come as easy to you. And because the growth isn't being recognized, it's either you did this behavior or you did it, instead of like recognizing like, you know, why are they not able to do this behavior? What, what is it?

And you mentioned making sure that you know certain needs are met, but how can, because we're talking on a school level and you know they have to have like the discipline plan for the school and all those different kinds of things, how can, and it's okay if you don't have an answer to this - you'd probably be on all the shows if you had an answer an answer to this - but on that level of school leadership, how can they figure out the students' needs um without having enough time to one-on-one speak to every single student?

Lucas

Yeah. So, I think there's a lot, of lot of kind of random different tools that are that are coming to mind. Um, I know, you know, we talked about the the MTSS system where they're focusing on the kids who do seem to be needing more of that individualized attention and trying to, trying to to get some of that, that focus. I I think something that people really want to keep in mind and I I know even if you realize this like it can be really hard to find find time to save time, but basically like you know doing things up front with the kid and getting the problem solved is often saves you so much more time over the course of the year than just dealing with a meltdown every single time it happens. Um I think one of the biggest tips that I would give people is um one of the biggest tips that I would give people is to you know it might it often feels overwhelming like oh you know now I've got all these things and now I have to do something new and so the biggest thing is looking at like what can you stop doing like looking at your rules and really kind of doing this inventory of is this serving an important purpose? And if it is, is there a less restrictive way that it could be serving this purpose so that you're not battling over, you know, are they standing at their desk or sitting or are they um, you know, wearing a shirt that is the wrong color because that's the only one they could find that's comfortable for them or things like that. Um, and then also, you know, the partnership with the parents, I think, is really important. Parents are, you know, both sides are going to have their distortions, but parents are often going to know a lot of things that you don't know.

Um, I was I was talking with a school and um I was you know I'd experienced schools where they really kind of, I guess don't want me to come off like I know better than them or something is like really trying to be, you know, very very cautious and diplomatic and saying um okay so like you know what what are you planning can you tell me about how you usually handle these things? What are you planning to do with these what are you planning to to do with this kid? And eventually the person cuts me off and it's just like, "I'm a little confused. Like I thought you were calling me to tell me what what works for this kid." I was like, okay, yes, I can absolutely do that. That's that's amazing.

So I think that is, you know, looking at other people in their life from outside of the school, talking to their therapists, talking to other professionals involved, and then also looking at kind of people down on the ground. You'll often have staff members who know the kid really well. And that might be a teacher. It might be a parent. It might even be like the custodian has a really good rapport with the kid. I know there's programs where they train everybody, you know, they they train the the staff, they train the custodians, they train the lunch uh staff, everybody in the Collab and Proactive Solutions, so they are all equipped to to support the kids in these kinds of things. And so, um, yeah, I think if you can develop that trust where people believe that, you know, what they have to say, you're going to you're going to listen to it, then, um, you can get a a huge amount of information without necessarily being needing to be in charge of figuring it out all out yourself at the top.

Deiera

That's really smart. I like what you were saying to talk to all the different just all the different people in that child's life and also training them because often times that's not the case there. I didn't get much training, if any at all, on um working with autistic students. I got like you know a textbook and a few discussion questions online um but not like actual training from my job but the special education teachers did. And so if even me as a general education teacher who worked with autistic students and students with ADHD and I'm sure AuDHD students, I didn't get the training, then I know custodians, school nutrition workers, school resource officers probably aren't getting that kind of training that's needed. And that's that's not good because you want all the adults in the building to be trusted adults. That might not always be, you know, the teacher might not be their person. A lot of kids, they have like their person at school. It might be the custodian. You know, they might love what the custodian does and they just want to hang out with the custodian. But if you aren't training them as well, then that's kind of like a setup for failure in a way because this custodian doesn't know how to interact with the student and, you know, how to support them, and the student isn't able to get what they need either. So, that's a really good point about training everyone.

And you also mentioned that it's easier to stop doing something than start doing something. And I love that because teachers are overwhelmed, administrators are overwhelmed, and so stopping something sounds great. That sounds really great. And it sounds like from the examples you gave with um you know the shirt not being the right color, you know to dress code, or not sitting in your seat - those are situations that can lead to power struggles and those power struggles can quickly get out of hand. Are there are there other things that you've seen because you worked with so many families at different schools. Are there other things that you say where it's like, you know, is it is this really that important or would you just stop doing this and it'll make everyone's lives a lot easier?

Lucas

Um, oh, I had a I had a kid where they were like getting written up and I'm just like trying so hard not to laugh at the things the kids were doing. Like, they were so harmless, and they honestly were pretty funny. And um I'm sure that like power struggling over that made it a million times worse than than it ever ever needed to be. Um giving more um you know having more flexibility around lead time. Transitions are often very difficult and so like I was um observing in a self-contained classroom at one point and like a kid needed to get from point A to point B and he was carrying like these plastic chips and so this kid uh he he like puts the chips on his eyes and is like doing this this walk like this and um they just let him do it you know he wasn't being disruptive he wasn't causing a problem apparently he could he could still see because he wasn't bumping into into stuff. And like I could see so many people where like the kid was going to do the thing. He got where he was going. He did his thing. But so many people would have jumped in and stopped him and then he would not have done the thing that he was actually going going to do.

Deiera

So what would you say that like the educator administrator should ask themselves before telling your kid to stop doing something?

Lucas

Um, yeah. I think is is this a problem, in general, is the big thing. Like is this a thing that I could just let go forever and it's not going to be an issue. Is this something that needs to be dealt with right now? Like, you know, this is something when I'm working with clients, like I'm like, okay, this is not great if it becomes a recurring thing, but also I'm going to wait and see if it becomes a recurring thing before I uh, you know, spend our spend our time on this. And so, I think that is just asking yourself, does this need to be dealt with right now? And even if it is urgent, like is now even the best time to be doing it because there's, you know, safety things. Okay, sometimes you need to do things right in the moment. But like one of the things that I talk with parents about when they've got a kid where like something really needs to change with the kid, like they they're failing their class, they're doing something that's super unhealthy for them or something, but the parents like keep kind of getting on their case about it. And I feel like every time they do that kind of disrupts the kid from figuring out for themself what they're going to do about. And so for parents, I compare it to like, you know, if you realize that the kid has like climbed up in this really tall tree, like if you yell, you know, be careful, there's a good chance like the kid is going to be startled and fall out of fall out of the tree. And so we often feel this impulse that's coming from our own um our our own anxiety of I I need to take action right now when in reality if you have I guess this is where kind of having a a plan in advance for like what what are my what are my heuristics for how do I make these judgments on whether I need to take action because your your intuition in that moment is probably not going to be great about what's going to be most effective.

Deiera

Yeah, that's so true. I thought about, you know, the question of is it really important to address this, but the right now piece is good to add on to that because sometimes things do need to be addressed or it might not even become an issue. And so it's just like, wow, I'm glad I didn't have a whole power struggle in the middle of the hallway over a one-time thing. But yeah. That's good parenting advice.

Lucas

And sometimes you'll also see like one of one of the the most memorable things for me was I had a kid just like chuck my stuff on the floor and um you know I we we we look at the stuff and I'm like "Boy, it it seems like you're really reaching your limit here" and we just look at each other for a little while longer and then without me saying anything else the kid goes and picks up all my stuff and puts it puts it back on the table.

Deiera

Yeah, that that look was probably just like, okay, well, this doesn't want to go anywhere. I don't know why I just did that. I'm going to go pick these up now. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. It seems like, wow, this is kids also. Like some stuff is just being the kid. Um, so yeah, that's that's really cool. I'm sure you have tons of stories because how long have you been in this field?

Lucas

Um, I've I've been licensed for about about five years now, but the neurodiversity stuff like I was starting in college, so that is 18 years diversity stuff.

Deiera

Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, you have tons of stories. I only taught for four years and I have tons of stories. So...

Well, thank you so much, Lucas. It's always a pleasure to have you on the show, and I know our listeners are going to learn so much from you.

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